Using the Dark Side to Spread the Light

An Interview with Charlie Carner, Director of JUDAS

by Stan Williams

"Judas" an ABC Movie that will premiere March 8, 2004, 9 p.m. ET, is a very unconventional look at the life of Jesus through the eyes of one of history's great antagonists. The television movie was executive-produced by multi-Emmy Award-winning writer-producer Tom Fontana (Homicide: Life on the Streets," Oz), who also wrote the screenplay; directed by Charles Carner ("Crossfire Trail,") and produced by Ann Wingate.

"Judas" is an accomplishment for a number of reasons. First, there is the unique perspective. There have been dozens of films made about Christ's life, the Light of the World, but none has ever on the protagonist of the dark side. "Judas" is also remarkable because the sets, the costumes, and makeup reflect the grittiness of the times when the Apostles lived, slept, and ate outdoors. I was also taken the visual and esthetic parallels that Fontana and Carner developed, especially the death of Christ on a tree and the death of Judas from a tree—something I knew, but never recognized.

I had the chance to talk recently with Carner about "Judas" and his involvement. Here are excerpts of our conversation.

WILLIAMS: You shot this long before Mel Gibson shot THE PASSION.

CARNER: We shot it in the summer of 2001, actually. At the time we were completely unaware that Mel Gibson was contemplating doing the Passion and obviously his film went into production after we completed our film. But the timing turned out to be fortuitous in the sense that now that THE PASSION is being released, and has gotten so much attention in the press, and has raised awareness in the minds of the audience, ABC considered it an opportune moment to put our show on and take advantage of the heightened awareness.

WILLIAMS: My favorite interactions in the film revolve around Pilate (Tim Matheson) and his wife Claudia (Fiona Glascott).

CARNER: You're always struggling to figure out how much weight to give each character and to give each moment, with the limitations of running time and everything else. But, when you work with actors that are as good as Tim and Fiona, they bring a lot to the party, and make the audience, hopefully, want to see more. You always want to try to suggest all the things that are going on beneath the surface.

WILLIAMS: This was Fr. Bud Kaiser's (founder of Paulist Productions) original concept?

CARNER: Yes, he originally went to ABC with the idea of doing a multi-part mini-series about all the Disciples. And ABC said, well, the one that really seems the most interesting and unusual to us is Judas. So they decided to concentrate on Judas. Fr. Kaiser knew Tom Fontana, and asked him to write the script, and come aboard as a partner. And while Tom was working on the script, Fr. Kaiser died (September 16, 2000). Then Fr. Frank Desiderio took over (Paulist Productions) and Tom wrote a wonderful script. I got involved when it was heading toward production. They decided they were going to go forward with it, and I had know Fr. Frank, and he asked me to direct the picture, and ABC said okay.

WILLIAMS: Tell us a little of the nuts and bolts of the production, location , budget and schedule.

CARNER: The movie was shot in Quarzazate, Morocco on a budget of about $5 million in 23 days on 35mm film. We took a normal amount of prep time, which for a TV movie is about 4-5 weeks.

WILLIAMS: Did you do storyboards?

CARNER: I always do some storyboards, and for this picture, we storyboarded every scene. It's always helpful, when you're trying to manage a complicated production with limited shooting time, you always try to maximize your resources.

WILLIAMS: What about casting. How did that go?

CARNER: Casting went on for a number of weeks. It was an interesting aspect of the movie because this picture was a real partnership between Fr. Frank, Tom Fontana, and myself. The needs of the production were such that we really had to trust each other. It was a case in which people working together and collaborating and trusting each other worked out very well. Tom was in New York working on the television series "Oz," and I was in Morocco while casting was still going on and so he had to trust Fr. Frank, who was here in Los Angeles handling the casting process with ABC and Paramount, that we were going to deliver his baby and not screw it up in the process. Fr. Frank was here in L.A. putting actors on tape and the tapes would get sent to me in Morocco. So, we were all in different places working toward the same goal. For me, it was a great collaboration because we were forced by circumstance to trust each other. And the trust was rewarded.

WILLIAMS: How long did post-production take?

CARNER: the post-production period was about 12 weeks, which is standard. One of the things that made this an extremely happy collaboration for me was is that I shot the movie the way I wanted to shoot it, in terms of the look and all those things you mentioned and those were very deliberate choices. And then I edited the picture the way I wanted to. The network was extremely supportive. They essentially endorsed my cut of the movie, and that was very satisfying, to do a film like that and to be supported by the studio and the network instead of feeling you were being challenged.

WILLIAMS: Well, this was an unconventional story about Jesus, and for Christians watching I hope they read carefully that opening title card that the movie is an “interpretive dramatization.” You put this stake in the ground, and that obviously gives you some leeway with the story and history. Despite that disclaimer, were there any discussions or concerns about where you were going with the story?

CARNER: There were on-going theological discussions, and there were a number of Biblical scholars who were involved from various perspectives, including a Rabbi who helped us with the Jewish aspects of it because we were very concerned about presenting Jewish life in first century Palestine.

WILLIAMS: I think this is the first time I've seen a movie about Jesus and the disciples where we actually see the disciple praying as Jewish faithful would be doing at that time.

CARNER: We were trying to capture some of those details and illustrate the Jewishness of Jesus and his followers. What attracted me to the project, originally, was that the manner in which Jesus was viewed in the script is what I would call a very traditional point of view. He is clearly the Son of God, he’s clearly capable of performing these miracles, so his divine aspect is well represented as is the human aspect. I felt it was a good melding. It wasn’t a revisionist, or neo-modernist look at Jesus, and I was pleased about that. And of course, the way the Judas was portrayed I think is the singular triumph of Fontana’s script. It takes what we know about Judas from Scripture—that he was a disciple, that he betrayed Jesus, and that he committed suicide—it takes those three facts and spins a believable, human portrait about how a human being can go through those different changes. I would say the fourth foundation point of Judas is not something that was in Scripture but it has been in a lot of Biblical scholarship, commentaries, and literature that has been written in the last 50 years, has speculated that Judas may have been a zealot. So, that provided the foundation for both his attraction to Jesus and his frustration, because he’s expecting the Messiah to be a warrior king like David. When Jesus turns out to be a very different kind of leader, Judas just can’t comprehend it ultimately, with tragic results.

WILLIAMS: After Jesus overturns the money-changers tables he confides in Judas “I lost my temper.” Did that line give anyone theological pause, because it does indicate a lack of self-control on Jesus’ part.

CARNER: That was a line of dialogue that we did not flag going in as a problem. But it has been the topic of some discussions since. That choice of words might not have been the best.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I’ve always seen that scene that Jesus knew what he was doing, he was angry, but it was righteous indignation. He didn’t lose it.

CARNER: Yes. Exactly. That’s true. It’s funny, because you try to catch everything and be aware of everything and you’re not always sure about what things people are going to be highly sensitive to. One of the big things we were worried about is that the movie essentially ends on Good Friday. It doesn’t have the Resurrection; it’s not depicted in a scene in the movie. We were very nervous about that, which is why cutting down of Judas and praying over him was so important. The subtext of that scene is that this is an example of the Resurrection. This is an example of the Sprit of Jesus living on, as the disciples are praying over the very guy who betrayed the Messiah. This illustrates the profundity of Jesus’ message.

WILLIAMS: So, what is your response to the criticism that this can’t be a Christian movie because there is no Resurrection.

CARNER: There are two examples. One is that the last 2000 years of human history is testimony to the proof of the Resurrection, as well as the spread of the Christian faith. Secondly, the scene in which they pray over Judas, Jesus’ voice is heard mixing with prayer of the disciples, and ultimately mixing over the prayer for them. The idea was to imply, prior to the Resurrections, wish Jesus’ voice.

WILLIAMS: Oh. My wife may have caught that but I didn’t. I noticed there was a change in voice there, but I didn’t catch that it was Jesus’ voice.

CARNER: It is quite subtle, but that is what was intended.

WILLIAMS: One of the distractions I had was the mix of dialogue styles. There was this tight eloquence that I would expect from a period drama very condensed used of English, there was this almost American street casual, and then when we get into a Biblical scene it’s like we lapse into the King James’ metaphoric language. It had to be hard for you, but was there a consciousness of these different dialogue styles and how were going to mix them together?

CARNER: The challenge of the movie for me was to take this story that is so familiar and has been told so many times on film and somehow find a way to make it emotional that would reach the audience on an immediate level. Most Bible movies, as you say, you start seeing these guys in their robes and sandals and it becomes a postcard or a Christmas pageant. It loses emotional impact. And one of the things I thought was great about Fontana’s script is that it managed to convey emotional immediacy, and accessibility without being too anachronistic. It was a challenge throughout to try to find that balance and maintain it. I don’t know how successful we were. We convinced ourselves that we found the right balance, but it ultimately will be up to the audience to decide whether they buy it or not. Mel Gibson avoided the whole thing in his movie by having them speak in Aramaic and Latin. That wasn’t an option for us, and so we were trying to find, not be stodgy like THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD but not have them speaking with Brooklyn accents like THE LAST TEMPATION OF CHRIST.

WILLIAMS: There are some scenes where Judas carries a pretension of authority for the zealot cause. But the movie really doesn’t portray him as any more that a disconcerted citizen that wants to get rid of the Romans. It seems that there was a scene that was edited for time that might have explained Judas’ connection with zealots.

CARNER: We tried to show that Judas’ father was crucified for being part of an insurrection, when Judas was a kid. We don’t depict Judas as being part of some underground, freedom fighting organization, but he’s clearly in sympathy with that point of view. When he’s in the wine shop he mentions to Eliakim and Jeshura, that there are groups of men, or zealots, who are ready to fight, if you find the right leader, and that's where he seeks out John the Baptist and then Jesus. There was, at one time in the script, a scene where there was a riot that Judas participated in, but it was cut.

WILLIAMS: Because he’s brought before Caiaphas for being a rabble rouser, but we never see that.

CARNER: Yeah. Yeah. We don’t quite see that. Yeah, it was one of the things that got cut. There was a sense that he was more involved in the rebellion against the Roman occupation.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, because he’s coming to Jesus and threatening, “If you don’t do what I say I’m going to leave you.” And I’m thinking, so what, what’s it to Jesus. That probably would have helped connect the dots. I understood where it was coming from, but I wonder how much is it that I know from studying the Bible all my life, and how much is in the film.

CARNER: Which is one of the challenges. At what point do you rely on the audiences’ own education and understanding and at what point do you connect all the dots for them. It’s an on-going challenge.

WILLIAMS: After Jesus turns over the money changers’ tables, and he’s talking with Judas, and Judas says, “I was really impressed with what you did,” Judas has this line where he says, “the idea is to chase the bastards out.” In other words, it sounds as if, Judas is saying the money changers are Romans, not Jews, and Judas was happy to see Jesus attacking the money changers as if they were Romans.

CARNER: Well, the money changers serve the Romans in the sense that money changing had to be done at all, because the Roman currency being everywhere Jerusalem. The Romans outlawed the use of shekels for commerce, but in the temple you could only use shekels for your offering. So, that is where the money changers came in. They would charge exorbitant fees for changing money and all that stuff. But there are two things that are operating. One is the fact, that throughout the Old Testament, God is always trying to get his people to shape up because they are always straying from the path, and other being what do we do about this occupying army that is choking us and preventing us from living our lives the way we want? So, the two things are what is one Judas’ mind and anyone who served the Romans, like Matthew the tax collector, he might as well be a Roman.

WILLIAMS: Okay, good. That makes a lot of sense about something I’ve not understood before. Going back to the costumes for a moment, the dirty, worn soldiers’ costumes and the dustiness and stuff. Was there an effort made to this dirtiness and getting the hair matted.

CARNER: The goal from the beginning was that these people lived their entire life outside. If you’ve ever done any camping, or spent anytime outdoors for days on end, I’ve been on Safari a number of times and I’ve camped out all my life, that is the reality. When you spend your time outdoors, in the same clothes, particularly in a land where water is kind-of precious, you’re not going to look like you stepped out of a pageant. That has been a problem for all those other movies. They never managed to convey the sense of reality of living, cooking, eating, sleeping and everything outside. These disciples were on the road. They weren’t staying at the Motel 6. The other thing is, that in Morocco, the light is incredibly beautiful, and it has a tendency to transform anything that you photograph into a postcard. So we were constantly fighting against the nature look of the place and convey that sense of reality. So, we always had wind machines blowing and throwing dust and dirt into it, so that after a while it became kind of a joke because whenever they walked on the set they were hit in the face with a sandstorm. But, it was what I was trying to convey. Finally, in a couple of scenes, like the crucifixion, the weather itself cooperated. We had enormous wind when we were shooting that scene. It was blowing a gale up there. It was quite dramatic.

WILLIAMS: Well, it came out great. And the movie does look like a feature, more than a made for TV movie. What did you do to make it look more like a feature?

CARNER: First off I had a brilliant cinematographer, Michael Goi, who’s shot a number of pictures for me and is an enormous talent who’s got a great eye. We tried to take advantage of the scale of the vistas of these locations and sets, as much as we possibly could, so we didn’t lose the intimacy of actors when it plays on television. But without, losing the size and scale. I was trying to get that sense, give a kind of epic sense to the story.

WILLIAMS: Any more thoughts on comparing JUDAS to Mel Gibson’s PASSION?

CARNER: I’m happy anytime the story of Jesus is told on film with any kind of integrity and serious intent. So, I’m very happy that Mel Gibson has made his film. And I’m also happy because it has provided an impetus for ABC to broadcast our movie about Judas. Although I’ve never met Mel Gibson, I’m kind of in his debt. [The film sat on ABC’s back shelf for 2 years.] I’ve seen THE PASSION, which is a brilliant film. It is a masterwork. To some extent it’s a bit daunting to have a little television movie come out and face an immediate comparison to a $25 million dollar film directed by an Academy Award winning filmmaker, but that is the situation we’re in, so we’ll take the bad with the good. It’s a very different story. Mel Gibson’s movie concentrates entirely on the trial and crucifixion of Jesus—the very last 12 hours of Jesus’ life. So, it’s quite a different film, but obvious deals with many of the same characters and issues. Mel Gibson made a brilliant movie and I think our film is a good movie that takes a different look at the same story. I think that hopefully the two movies will compliment each other.

WILLIAMS: On the filmmaking side of things, technically, what was the most challenging aspect of making JUDAS?

CARNER: I would say, the most challenging time of shooting was the crucifixion because we shot the crucifixion of Jesus and the suicide of Judas on the same day. So, we had to jump back and forth between the two sites, and we had to shoot both day and night, because we had the sky going dark, and that whole sequence was done at night. That was longest day of shooting and physically the biggest challenge.

WILLIAMS: Were the two locations widely spread apart?

CARNER: They weren’t far apart, but they were difficult to get to because that area doesn’t have a lot of roads. They were within visual contact of each other because we have the shot that shows Jesus in the foreground and Judas in the background.

WILLIAMS: So that wasn’t a special effect?

CARNER: No. That was done on location. But, it was hard to get from one hill to the other in that very rugged landscape. But, we knew that going in and everybody rose to the occasion.

WILLIAMS: Did you learn anything on this project?

CARNER: (laughs) You learn everyday. There’s always something. One thing I learned on this movie, it was a lesson, and in some ways I’ve learned in the past, but I’ve relearned it. And that is the enormous power that music has in film. Bill Conti wrote the score for Judas and I think he absolutely transformed the movie. He wrote a brilliant score, and for me the movie did not play emotionally until his movie was put to the picture. It was quite a revelation.

WILLIAMS: What did you learn on the spiritual side of things?

CARNER: There are two ways to go about making a movie about Jesus Christ the Savior of the World. One is be so egotistical that you don’t even think about the importance or the responsibility and you just go, and serve your ego, and make your movie. What I tried to do was the opposite, which is everyday I begin with a prayer that I would remove myself from the process, keep my ego as far out of it as I possibly could, and try to open myself up to the Spirit and let the Spirit guide me. That was my prayer everyday, and that is what I hoped to do.

WILLIAMS: Last question. What do you hope JUDAS, in terms of message, with communicate to its viewers?

CARNER: I hope that people will watch the movie and that they will be moved emotionally by it and they’ll be touched by the spiritual side of it and if it does anything to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ then I’ve done by job.